Valhalla Legends Archive

Member Forums => Excess of Grok => Topic started by: MyndFyre on March 27, 2004, 07:43 AM

Title: Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: MyndFyre on March 27, 2004, 07:43 AM
At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior. "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship." "The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years.  

During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:  

From Bondage to spiritual faith;  

From spiritual faith to great courage;  

From courage to liberty;  

From liberty to abundance;  

From abundance to complacency;  

From complacency to apathy;  

From apathy to dependence;  

From dependence back into bondage."  

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St.Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the most recent Presidential election:  

Population of counties won by:  

Gore=127 million  

Bush=143 million  

Square miles of land won by:  

Gore=580,000  

Bush=2,427,000  

States won by:  

Gore=19  

Bush=29  

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:  

Gore=13.2  

Bush=2.1  

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare..." Olson believes the U.S. is now somewhere between the "apathy" and "complacency" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy; with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: Grok on March 27, 2004, 11:32 AM
I do find it interesting, and do not disagree.  Good find.
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: Dark-Feanor on March 27, 2004, 01:52 PM
All big cities are primarily liberal and free from the "idiocy of the country."  Therefore, Gore carried areas that are very densly populated, such as Washington D.C. (which 91% of the vote went to Gore). I am not so sure that the election has anything to do with people being dependant on the government. For all of modern history (1500 - present) , cities have been primarily liberal while the country site has been primarily conservative.
Quote
Population of counties won by:  

Gore=127 million  

Bush=143 million
I am not sure what that means, but Gore won the popular vote by about 500,000 votes.
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: Hazard on March 27, 2004, 02:12 PM
I love the Electoral college.
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: MyndFyre on March 27, 2004, 03:27 PM
Quote from: DaRk-FeAnOr on March 27, 2004, 01:52 PM
All big cities are primarily liberal and free from the "idiocy of the country."  Therefore, Gore carried areas that are very densly populated, such as Washington D.C. (which 91% of the vote went to Gore). I am not so sure that the election has anything to do with people being dependant on the government. For all of modern history (1500 - present) , cities have been primarily liberal while the country site has been primarily conservative.
Quote
Population of counties won by:  

Gore=127 million  

Bush=143 million
I am not sure what that means, but Gore won the popular vote by about 500,000 votes.

That means that, if everyone in the counties voted exactly (percentage-wise) as the few people who did vote in those counties, that Bush would have had 143m votes, and Gore would have only had 127m.
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: Adron on March 27, 2004, 03:39 PM
I thought it meant that if everyone in the counties Bush won had voted for Bush and everyone in the counties Gore won had voted for Gore, then they'd have gotten those numbers? I.e. 100% for one candidate, 0% for the other?

Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: Dark-Feanor on March 27, 2004, 03:43 PM
Oh, I understand.
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: Grok on March 27, 2004, 04:13 PM
Quote from: Myndfyre on March 27, 2004, 03:27 PM
That means that, if everyone in the counties voted exactly (percentage-wise) as the few people who did vote in those counties, that Bush would have had 143m votes, and Gore would have only had 127m.

Does this mean Bush voters are more apathetic than Democratic voters?
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: MyndFyre on March 27, 2004, 04:43 PM
Quote from: Grok on March 27, 2004, 04:13 PM
Quote from: Myndfyre on March 27, 2004, 03:27 PM
That means that, if everyone in the counties voted exactly (percentage-wise) as the few people who did vote in those counties, that Bush would have had 143m votes, and Gore would have only had 127m.

Does this mean Bush voters are more apathetic than Democratic voters?

That wouldn't suprise me, but then you also have to consider other factors -- for example, perhaps the voters in Bush's corner couldn't get to the polling place because they had work and/or school.  I know that my parents -- particularly my dad -- aren't apathetic to the political situation, but he doesn't make any special effort to get to the polling place.

[edit]
So I suppose Bush voters are just more lazy, not apathetic.  :)
[/edit]
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: Grok on March 27, 2004, 04:46 PM
One problem I see with those numbers is "population" is not the same as "population of voting age and status".

So noncitizens, everyone under 18, as well as all people in jail, on parole or probation, should be subtracted to find out the actual numbers.
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: Dark-Feanor on March 27, 2004, 04:49 PM
Another possibility is that Gore carried counties by a greater percentage than Bush did. Like Gore won his counties by an average of 65% while Bush won his counties by an average of 55% or whatever.
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: MyndFyre on March 27, 2004, 06:40 PM
Quote from: DaRk-FeAnOr on March 27, 2004, 04:49 PM
Another possibility is that Gore carried counties by a greater percentage than Bush did. Like Gore won his counties by an average of 65% while Bush won his counties by an average of 55% or whatever.

That is inconsequential in counties that have smaller populations.
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: dodge on April 28, 2004, 03:11 PM
Quote
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:  

Gore=13.2  

Bush=2.1

That is the best part in the whole thing!
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: Hazard on April 28, 2004, 03:37 PM
You dug up a thread that has been dead for a month and didn't add anything constructive. You broke the second cardinal rule you bafoon.
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: MyndFyre on May 06, 2004, 08:00 PM
Quote from: Hazard on April 28, 2004, 03:37 PM
You dug up a thread that has been dead for a month and didn't add anything constructive. You broke the second cardinal rule you bafoon.

Hey hey -- first of all, it's "bufoon."  Get it right.

Second -- well, you were right about the rest of it.  ;)
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: DarkMinion on May 07, 2004, 02:14 PM
Actually it's buffoon.
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: MyndFyre on May 07, 2004, 02:40 PM
Quote from: DarkMinion on May 07, 2004, 02:14 PM
Actually it's buffoon.

Yeah, it didn't look right after I posted it, but I was too lazy to look it up.  I actually used it in a paper today, and Word auto-corrected me.  I saw DM's statement in Op [vL] about me getting owned in Grok's forum, and I knew immediately what he meant :P
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: K on May 13, 2004, 02:14 PM
You can use statistics to prove anything.  For example, someone sent me this the other day:

Source: http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~gcharter/iq.txt

                             AVG IQ      AVG Income       '00 Electoral
(1) Connecticut..................113      $26,979          Gore
(2) Massachusetts................111      $24,059          Gore
(3) New Jersey...................111      $26,457          Gore
(4) New York.....................109      $23,534          Gore
(5) Rhode Island.................107      $20,299          Gore
(6) Hawaii.......................106      $21,218          Gore
(7) Maryland.....................105      $22,974          Gore
(8) New Hampshire................105      $22,934          Bush
(9) Illinois.....................104      $21,608          Gore
(10) Delaware....................103      $21,451          Gore
(11) Minnesota...................102      $20,049          Gore
(12) Vermont.....................102      $18,834          Gore
(13) Washington..................102      $20,398          Gore
(14) California..................101      $21,278          Gore
(15) Pennsylvania................101      $20,253          Gore
(16) Maine.......................100      $18,226          Gore
(17) Virginia....................100      $20,629          Bush
(18) Wisconsin...................100      $18,727          Gore
(19) Colorado.....................99      $20,124          Bush
(20) Iowa.........................99      $18,287          Gore
(21) Michigan.....................99      $19,508          Gore
(22) Nevada.......................99      $20,266          Bush
(23) Ohio.........................99      $18,624          Bush
(24) Oregon.......................99      $18,202          Gore
(25) Alaska.......................98      $21,603          Bush
(26) Florida......................98      $19,397          Bush
(27) Missouri.....................98      $18,835          Bush
(28) Kansas.......................96      $19,376          Bush
(29) Nebraska.....................95      $19,084          Bush
(30) Arizona......................94      $17,119          Bush
(31) Indiana......................94      $18,043          Bush
(32) Tennessee....................94      $17,341          Bush
(33) North Carolina...............93      $17,667          Bush
(34) West Virginia................93      $15,065          Bush
(35) Arkansas.....................92      $15,439          Bush
(36) Georgia......................92      $18,130          Bush
(37) Kentucky.....................92      $16,534          Bush
(38) New Mexico...................92      $15,353          Gore
(39) North Dakota.................92      $16,854          Bush
(40) Texas........................92      $17,892          Bush
(41) Alabama......................90      $16,220          Bush
(42) Louisiana....................90      $15,712          Bush
(43) Montana......................90      $16,062          Bush
(44) Oklahoma.....................90      $16,198          Bush
(45) South Dakota.................90      $16,558          Bush
(46) South Carolina...............89      $15,989          Bush
(47) Wyoming......................89      $17,423          Bush
(48) Idaho........................87      $16,067          Bush
(49) Utah.........................87      $15,325          Bush
(50) Mississippi..................85      $14,088          Bush

[Host: The income-IQ correlation was inspired by the book "IQ and the Wealth of Nations," by Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen. The income statistics are now perhaps a decade old, but were apparently the only numbers available to the original compiler when the results of the '00 election became available (and this chart was made).


So do Rich people vote Democrat?  Or do people of less-than-average intelligence vote Republican?
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: MyndFyre on May 15, 2004, 02:35 AM
Quote from: K on May 13, 2004, 02:14 PM
You can use statistics to prove anything.  For example, someone sent me this the other day:

Source: http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~gcharter/iq.txt

                             AVG IQ      AVG Income       '00 Electoral
(1) Connecticut..................113      $26,979          Gore
(2) Massachusetts................111      $24,059          Gore
(3) New Jersey...................111      $26,457          Gore
(4) New York.....................109      $23,534          Gore
(5) Rhode Island.................107      $20,299          Gore
(6) Hawaii.......................106      $21,218          Gore
(7) Maryland.....................105      $22,974          Gore
(8) New Hampshire................105      $22,934          Bush
(9) Illinois.....................104      $21,608          Gore
(10) Delaware....................103      $21,451          Gore
(11) Minnesota...................102      $20,049          Gore
(12) Vermont.....................102      $18,834          Gore
(13) Washington..................102      $20,398          Gore
(14) California..................101      $21,278          Gore
(15) Pennsylvania................101      $20,253          Gore
(16) Maine.......................100      $18,226          Gore
(17) Virginia....................100      $20,629          Bush
(18) Wisconsin...................100      $18,727          Gore
(19) Colorado.....................99      $20,124          Bush
(20) Iowa.........................99      $18,287          Gore
(21) Michigan.....................99      $19,508          Gore
(22) Nevada.......................99      $20,266          Bush
(23) Ohio.........................99      $18,624          Bush
(24) Oregon.......................99      $18,202          Gore
(25) Alaska.......................98      $21,603          Bush
(26) Florida......................98      $19,397          Bush
(27) Missouri.....................98      $18,835          Bush
(28) Kansas.......................96      $19,376          Bush
(29) Nebraska.....................95      $19,084          Bush
(30) Arizona......................94      $17,119          Bush
(31) Indiana......................94      $18,043          Bush
(32) Tennessee....................94      $17,341          Bush
(33) North Carolina...............93      $17,667          Bush
(34) West Virginia................93      $15,065          Bush
(35) Arkansas.....................92      $15,439          Bush
(36) Georgia......................92      $18,130          Bush
(37) Kentucky.....................92      $16,534          Bush
(38) New Mexico...................92      $15,353          Gore
(39) North Dakota.................92      $16,854          Bush
(40) Texas........................92      $17,892          Bush
(41) Alabama......................90      $16,220          Bush
(42) Louisiana....................90      $15,712          Bush
(43) Montana......................90      $16,062          Bush
(44) Oklahoma.....................90      $16,198          Bush
(45) South Dakota.................90      $16,558          Bush
(46) South Carolina...............89      $15,989          Bush
(47) Wyoming......................89      $17,423          Bush
(48) Idaho........................87      $16,067          Bush
(49) Utah.........................87      $15,325          Bush
(50) Mississippi..................85      $14,088          Bush

[Host: The income-IQ correlation was inspired by the book "IQ and the Wealth of Nations," by Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen. The income statistics are now perhaps a decade old, but were apparently the only numbers available to the original compiler when the results of the '00 election became available (and this chart was made).


So do Rich people vote Democrat?  Or do people of less-than-average intelligence vote Republican?

I think the stats don't really do it justice.

Is the average income and IQ based on the state, or based on a sample of the voting population?
Isn't it reasonable to assume that low-income people tend to vote republican because they want to keep more of their money?
As numerous statistics have shown, the trend tends to show an increase in general (modern) liberalism as income and education increase, up to a certain point, at which people will become more moderate or conservative.  However, this part of the population is only representative of about 1% of the overall population.

Just some things to think about before you just sit tabular data down.  It can lie, as I believe you were trying to point out.  ;)
Title: Re:Oooh Grok -- you'll find this interesting
Post by: Yoni on May 22, 2004, 04:59 PM
I highly doubt the average IQ in any normal population is likely to deviate so highly from 100. (113, 85??)

And what's this about average income being almost perfectly directly proportional to average IQ?!