Let's get all countries to drop time zones, adopt a global clock. The number representation of the current time is only a relative offset from other times. No point in the 24-hour time is fixed to any global event, so why both having 24 separate clocks? Getting the whole world on the same clock would be more efficient.
It would mess with (paper) calendar makers. Suddenly they would have to make three different versions depending on where in the US you are. Or they would have to put in all 24 hours.
I really, really want to say this is silly. But I'm having trouble justifying my position.
That happend in 3001: The Final Odyssey.
I think it is a good idea.
People are used to when its 9:00PM its dark out, and if its 12:00AM its bright out (Weather permitting). Why take that away from them? It would just cause mass confusin.
Quote from: Blaze on August 23, 2005, 11:08 AM
People are used to when its 9:00PM its dark out, and if its 12:00AM its bright out (Weather permitting). Why take that away from them? It would just cause mass confusin.
They'll get over it.
I set my watch to GMT over a year ago. Perhaps I should begin referring to myself as a pioneer? :)
As it should be iago. The planet has one time. That we have segmented it into 24 arbitrary parts is our own faults, and that we have grown accustomed to certain digits being "now" (which changes daily despite our comfort...how dare it?!) is also our fault.
Give the world one global time heartbeat.
Shut up, that's stupid. Why make everyone on Earth adapt to something that does nothing except make life harder? If you haven't noticed, it's light in DC when it's dark in California. It being the same time is overly retarded, for the same reason Blaze said.
Quote from: hismajesty[yL] on August 23, 2005, 04:18 PM
Shut up, that's stupid. Why make everyone on Earth adapt to something that does nothing except make life harder? If you haven't noticed, it's light in DC when it's dark in California. It being the same time is overly retarded, for the same reason Blaze said.
Justify your position or post somewhere else. Saying it's stupid because "it [...] is overly retarded" is not a justification.
I happen to agree with your position, but I can't think of a good reason. However, I would offer this as an analogous argument:
The United States should use metric measurements.
Sure, it may cause problem in the short term. But it is so exceedingly easier than the customary system (Why is freezing 32 and boiling 212? Why are there 12 inches in a foot and 5280 feet in a mile? For that matter, why is the speed of light roughly 186,282 miles per second?)
Quote from: Grok on August 23, 2005, 01:36 PM
24 arbitrary parts
If the parts being arbitrary is a problem, what makes you think that only one arbitrary time will be any better? We have an arbitrary mean time, GMT. But why is GMT correct? In fact, "now" is relative to everyone. Why not have an individual clock at every minute of longitude? Why not one every second?
Having time offsets allows our circadian rhythm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm) function regularly when we travel large distances. As you'll see in the article, the retina has a neural pathway to the hypothalmus and the region of the hypothalmus that controls this internal clock. We cannot control this stimulus (light perception) entirely, and therefore couldn't successfully or easily prevent the internal clock from adjusting to it, short of severing that connection at all. However, as the article also says, subjects with a severed connection simply do not have a regular sleep/wake cycle.
Having a universal clock implies that all businesses and people operate during the same hours. Frankly, I like to sleep when it's dark. I have things covering light sources in my room, and I bought a special Indiglo-brand clock so that I could turn off the backlight when I sleep at night. I have trouble sleeping when there is a light on, and I have trouble sleeping during the day. If that's not what you're gunning for, you should clarify.
MyndFyre, your automatic assumption that everyone operate on the same clock schedule reinforces to me that we need one global clock. That is not what I said, implied, or intended. Take for example, that I get up at 7am GMT-5. If we adopted GMT time, that would be 1200. So rather than setting my clock at 0700, I would set it for 1200, because that's when it makes sense for where I live on the planet.
The benefit of having everyone use the same time is you can accurately record events anywhere without needing to translate/shift to adapt recordings to where they took place. Sometimes "across the street" can mean an hour ago, or an hour from now. It's nonsensical.
I have no idea what sleeping with the light on, sleeping during the day, have to do with this. You would still get up and go to bed at your normal solar events. The time on your watch would reflect global time, and you would come to accept that is the world time.
I tend to agree with Grok.
Quote from: Grok on August 23, 2005, 09:12 AM
Let's get all countries to drop time zones, adopt a global clock. The number representation of the current time is only a relative offset from other times. No point in the 24-hour time is fixed to any global event, so why both having 24 separate clocks? Getting the whole world on the same clock would be more efficient.
Lets work on adopting a universal measurement system first. Then try and slip in this idea also.
Quote from: Forged on August 23, 2005, 11:20 PM
Quote from: Grok on August 23, 2005, 09:12 AM
Let's get all countries to drop time zones, adopt a global clock. The number representation of the current time is only a relative offset from other times. No point in the 24-hour time is fixed to any global event, so why both having 24 separate clocks? Getting the whole world on the same clock would be more efficient.
Lets work on adopting a universal measurement system first. Then try and slip in this idea also.
You're about as likely to get these implemented as you are a universal religion.
Quote from: Grok on August 23, 2005, 10:09 PM
MyndFyre, your automatic assumption that everyone operate on the same clock schedule reinforces to me that we need one global clock. That is not what I said, implied, or intended. Take for example, that I get up at 7am GMT-5. If we adopted GMT time, that would be 1200. So rather than setting my clock at 0700, I would set it for 1200, because that's when it makes sense for where I live on the planet.
The benefit of having everyone use the same time is you can accurately record events anywhere without needing to translate/shift to adapt recordings to where they took place. Sometimes "across the street" can mean an hour ago, or an hour from now. It's nonsensical.
I have no idea what sleeping with the light on, sleeping during the day, have to do with this. You would still get up and go to bed at your normal solar events. The time on your watch would reflect global time, and you would come to accept that is the world time.
Everything would be off when you travelled. So, if you crossed the normal time zone line, and the businesses started keeping different hours (for example, instead of 8 am local time, businesses opened here at 3 pm universal time), then I crossed into California, where businesses opened at 4 pm universal time, I would need to adjust what time I was used to businesses opening. That would create a much bigger hassle IMHO than having 24 time zones. Of course, the hassle would only be to travellers.
Otherwise, you'd need to have universal times, which is the assumption I made earlier.
While we are on the subject of unity, why don't we make one big government for the whole world instead of having silly little ones. Also we shouldn't have countries. We should just be humans.
Quote from: Blaze on August 24, 2005, 12:41 AM
While we are on the subject of unity, why don't we make one big government for the whole world instead of having silly little ones. Also we shouldn't have countries. We should just be humans.
Don't get me started on the psychological near-impossibilities of that.
I really do think that it would require a nearly Star-Trek-First-Contact-esque experience before that could happen.
Quote from: MyndFyre on August 24, 2005, 12:23 AM
Everything would be off when you travelled. So, if you crossed the normal time zone line, and the businesses started keeping different hours (for example, instead of 8 am local time, businesses opened here at 3 pm universal time), then I crossed into California, where businesses opened at 4 pm universal time, I would need to adjust what time I was used to businesses opening. That would create a much bigger hassle IMHO than having 24 time zones. Of course, the hassle would only be to travellers.
Businesses already open and close at different hours in different parts of the world. I wouldn't say that having to find out whether they open at 3 or 4 is such a big problem. I already check to find out whether they open 7 am, 8 am, 9 am or 10 am here. Clothes stores tend to open up more towards 10 am, and shipping companies tend to open their offices more towards 7 am.
I agree a single timezone would be simpler in the end. Confusing to start with, but then better when people got used to it - especially since things are becoming all-the-more global.
I really think it is things like this that hold the world back, were all too afraid of being a little confused for about a week (or month, or year). Why doesn't the U.S. use metric? Because we might be confused for a little while! Humans are afraid of change when content, and none more so than the majority of the U.S.
Well, GMT is kind of what we use already as a "global time zone" when we seek the advantages such a thing would offer. Also, having a global time zone that people use casually leads to different ambiguities. For example, let's say I were to write a short story or report a news event containing the information "my friend stumbled through the door and knocked over my vase at 23:00". Immediately we, the readers, know that I'm saying my friend came in late at night and "stumbled" in -- we make all sorts of inferences from this (e.g. was he drunk?).
If I said, "my friend stumbled in at xx:xx international time," that would contain far less meaningful information. Even if I went out of my way to specify which country I live in, should people be really familiar with the "international clock" in every country, or every region of every country for that matter?
I think using GMT for stock markets etc would be appropriate, but for every day life it would be a nuisance, even if people got used to using it in their daily schedules. Something that was intended to make things more clear would in most cases make things more ambiguous.
I would not say that is a problem. Language would adapt to handle it. You could write "My friend stumbled in late at night" and things would be fine again. For International news, that is not really too much work. For local news, just giving a time would be fine. And just think about how much easier it would be to give a time for an event when you do not also have to specify the time zone for it, and people no longer have to translate to their local time frame.
What we're speaking of could never happen. If it did, we would probably be turning to one world government or dictatorship over the world too. I can't imagine what method we would use to get everyone in the world to follow a single timexone. If the US for example, was the country that wanted this to be done, why would everyone simply listen to us?
Quote from: Adron on August 25, 2005, 07:57 AM
I would not say that is a problem. Language would adapt to handle it. You could write "My friend stumbled in late at night" and things would be fine again. For International news, that is not really too much work. For local news, just giving a time would be fine.
Yes, I considered this, but "late at night" does not give nearly as much information as a time
of day. The way we have it, I can tell you about all sorts of events, spewing out various times as I please, and you will know precisely what times of day I am talking about, and be able to ascertain far more information; currently you have all sorts of knowledge about how humans operate at various times of the day.
Quote from: Adron on August 25, 2005, 07:57 AM
And just think about how much easier it would be to give a time for an event when you do not also have to specify the time zone for it, and people no longer have to translate to their local time frame.
Can't we just use GMT for this now?
I don't think there is anything too profound about having an "international time" to try and synchronize events "e.g. this event happened at this one and only time," because
time is not an absolute quantity anyways. It is not at all correct or proper to see time in this way.
I won't derive all of special relativity at the moment, but I'll give an example that most people will understand.
Let's have a laser clock
-------- Mirror
|
|
|
|
Source
Distance to the mirror is "L", time it takes to bounce from mirror and back to source is t = 2L/c , where c = the speed of light.
Let me move with a velocity
Vx to the right of the "stationary" mirror.
This is what the picture will look like to me
------ ------ ------
/ \
/ \
/ \
/ \
/ \
Source Source
Not a great drawing, but you get the idea. Everything appears to me to be shifting to the left. Now let's call my time T'. After the laser has gone half way in its journey, I will have gone a distance vT'/2. The laser will have gone a distance cT'/2. Since I am travelling in the horizontal direction, the vertical distance from me to the mirror is still L.
Using pythagoras' theorem, (L)^2 + (vT'/2)^2 = (cT'/2)^2.
(c^2-v^2)/4 * T'^2 = L^2
T'^2 = 4L^2 /[(c^2-v^2)]
T' = 2L/c*1/(Sqrt[1-v^2/c^2]) = 2L/c*gamma(v).
You can see that gamma(v) is always >= 1.
In this case since v^2 is some positive value that isn't c,
gamma(v) > 1.
Recall that the time for the person in the REST frame to see the event was
2L/c. So the time for the same "event" to happen in my frame is
T' = gamma(v)*t , which is "longer" than it appears for the person in the rest frame.
If we were to ever have this "international time zone" for everyone to go by, it would be for convenience, but it would almost be less proper because it would suggest we don't know how time works. In my opinion, it would be less convenient -- lots of information would be lost unless we went to great pains to express it in other ways.
I think I'll make a post about special relativity soon in the SQP forum. It is a fascinating topic that people think they understand but often don't. The "tank" example given in the past is a clear example of this: both events would NOT happen (the tank would not fall in and go past). The tank would fall into the hole if it were travelling fast enough, although the question was fairly vague (gravity would act on it in different ways, might have enough momentum to zoom through.. etc. better to think of a trap door with a black hole under it). How the event seemed in both reference frames would be very different.
Note added --> We could try and have a "rest reference time," but would be calculating the spacial positions and accounting for relative velocity differences for various events to make it work.
Here's the biggest problem with universal time......
Are you ready?
It would TOTALLY RUIN the word MIDNIGHT! How could I survive saying "0:00" instead of "midnight"? It would be horrible!!!
But seriously, whoever said it is right: we should worry about getting the slow countries on metric before worrying about time. I don't know how anybody can live with non-metric anymore.
I like it. I wouldn't mind waking up at 2pm & going to sleep at 4am & it seem normal.
But each day wouldn't start at 12am midnight, some would start at like 9am or something, wouldn't it?
Quote from: CrAz3D on August 25, 2005, 04:55 PM
I like it. I wouldn't mind waking up at 2pm & going to sleep at 4am & it seem normal.
But each day wouldn't start at 12am midnight, some would start at like 9am or something, wouldn't it?
Like it was already said, you would get used to it. I'm sure at one time having hours defined at all was odd.
Quote from: iago on August 25, 2005, 04:24 PM
But seriously, whoever said it is right: we should worry about getting the slow countries on metric before worrying about time. I don't know how anybody can live with non-metric anymore.
It's nice having iago tell me I'm right now and then. ;)
Change is bad, get back to your cubicle.
Who the hell cares, if we are going to make one clock, lets call it Miller Time and we can all enjoy the high life. *hands grok a beer* "It's five o'clock somewhere"
Quote from: jigsaw on August 25, 2005, 09:11 PM
Who the hell cares, if we are going to make one clock, lets call it Miller Time and we can all enjoy the high life. *hands grok a beer* "It's five o'clock somewhere"
If there is only one clock then it won't always be "five o'clock somewhere"...
It's not *always* five o'clock *somewhere* now, either. ;)
Eh? Yes it is. Perhaps in the middle of the ocean, but whatever :P
Its only 5:00 on each hour, because timezones are broken down by hours, not minutes. 5:00 only happens 24 times a day.
Yeah, this would be a great idea. Example, from World of Warcraft:
Some Person: Can someone help me?
Some Person: Hello?
Some Person: *freaking out*
Joe: Look, its 3 AM, nobodys even awake.
Some Person: Its noon (or something like that) here!
Turns out they lived in UK.
However, the downside, how do we intend to do this? Timezones have been in place for hundreds (right?) of years, they can't just be pushed aside. If you think of a way though, I support it.
Quote from: Joex86] link=topic=12597.msg125526#msg125526 date=1125055366]
Its only 5:00 on each hour, because timezones are broken down by hours, not minutes. 5:00 only happens 24 times a day.
Yeah, this would be a great idea. Example, from World of Warcraft:
Some Person: Can someone help me?
Some Person: Hello?
Some Person: *freaking out*
Joe: Look, its 3 AM, nobodys even awake.
Some Person: Its noon (or something like that) here!
Turns out they lived in UK.
However, the downside, how do we intend to do this? Timezones have been in place for hundreds (right?) of years, they can't just be pushed aside. If you think of a way though, I support it.
7 hours ahead of you wouldn't be UK. It would be a little bit east of Sweden, probably around Holland :-P
Quote from: MyndFyre on August 25, 2005, 06:19 PM
Quote from: iago on August 25, 2005, 04:24 PM
But seriously, whoever said it is right: we should worry about getting the slow countries on metric before worrying about time. I don't know how anybody can live with non-metric anymore.
It's nice having iago tell me I'm right now and then. ;)
Oops, sorry
Quote from: iago on August 26, 2005, 08:24 AM
Quote from: Joex86] link=topic=12597.msg125526#msg125526 date=1125055366]
Its only 5:00 on each hour, because timezones are broken down by hours, not minutes. 5:00 only happens 24 times a day.
Yeah, this would be a great idea. Example, from World of Warcraft:
Some Person: Can someone help me?
Some Person: Hello?
Some Person: *freaking out*
Joe: Look, its 3 AM, nobodys even awake.
Some Person: Its noon (or something like that) here!
Turns out they lived in UK.
However, the downside, how do we intend to do this? Timezones have been in place for hundreds (right?) of years, they can't just be pushed aside. If you think of a way though, I support it.
7 hours ahead of you wouldn't be UK. It would be a little bit east of Sweden, probably around Holland :-P
3+
9 = 12.
Quote from: Arta[vL] on August 26, 2005, 05:09 AM
Eh? Yes it is. Perhaps in the middle of the ocean, but whatever :P
As Joe said, time zones don't continuously change but are discretized, usually into hours (I think).
Quote from: Rule on August 26, 2005, 09:07 AM
Quote from: iago on August 26, 2005, 08:24 AM
Quote from: Joex86] link=topic=12597.msg125526#msg125526 date=1125055366]
Its only 5:00 on each hour, because timezones are broken down by hours, not minutes. 5:00 only happens 24 times a day.
Yeah, this would be a great idea. Example, from World of Warcraft:
Some Person: Can someone help me?
Some Person: Hello?
Some Person: *freaking out*
Joe: Look, its 3 AM, nobodys even awake.
Some Person: Its noon (or something like that) here!
Turns out they lived in UK.
However, the downside, how do we intend to do this? Timezones have been in place for hundreds (right?) of years, they can't just be pushed aside. If you think of a way though, I support it.
7 hours ahead of you wouldn't be UK. It would be a little bit east of Sweden, probably around Holland :-P
3+9 = 12.
Oops, my bad! I should have used a calculator :)
Ok, that person is 9 hours ahead of CST. The UK is 6 hours ahead of CST, so that person is 3 hours ahead of the UK :-o!
Ugh, it was just an example! =p
Quote from: iago on August 26, 2005, 08:24 AM
7 hours ahead of you wouldn't be UK. It would be a little bit east of Sweden, probably around Holland :-P
Well, Holland is west of Sweden...
I'm part Swedish, I found out today - my great great grandmother was full Swedish. My great great Grandfather was Norwegian though, but Norway is right next to Sweden!
Maybe we're related Adron!
We're all related!
CRADLE OF CIVILIZATION -> MESOPOTAMIA ^__^
one clock? thats silly. thats saying my clock would read 3am when the sun is out? it doesnt seem like the concept of one clock would work. when you travel to a different time zone, in a sense back in time, you are able to repeat that day over because light hasnt hit that area yet. time is set to the rotation of Earth. ah. point is: its stupid. :P
Quote from: Option on September 02, 2005, 08:11 AM
one clock? thats silly. thats saying my clock would read 3am when the sun is out? it doesnt seem like the concept of one clock would work. when you travel to a different time zone, in a sense back in time, you are able to repeat that day over because light hasnt hit that area yet. time is set to the rotation of Earth. ah. point is: its stupid. :P
That's just a matter of perspective... My clock does read 3am when the sun is up at times. And apart from that, why should you connect the numbers on your clock to where the sun is? It changes during the year anyway...
3am and the sun is up? If that happened here I'd think Jesus was coming back or aliens were attacking or something.
Quote from: hismajesty[yL] on September 02, 2005, 08:33 AM
3am and the sun is up? If that happened here I'd think Jesus was coming back or aliens were attacking or something.
Well, where my grandparents live, the sun is up all night for a couple weeks in june-july...
Here, between summer and winter, first light shifts from around 3 am to a bit after 8 am.
And in the winter, the sun sets before 3 pm, while in the summer it's still up after 10 pm.
Work in december: Go to work before sun comes up, go home after sun goes down. You may see it through the window or if you go out for lunch.
Vacation in june: Go to sleep while the sun is shining. Wake up and it's still shining.
Weird. Sun is usually up at around 6 or 6:30 AM here, and goes down at 6:30-7:30ish, give or take.
Haha, that seems weirder to me. You'd have to turn on the lights in the evening in the summer. And winter wouldn't be a dark season.
In the summer it stays out later, maybe to 8, that's why I said give or take.
Quote3am and the sun is up? If that happened here I'd think Jesus was coming back or aliens were attacking or something.
Or you got medflighted to Antarctica for the heart attack the haluci..drugs gave you. The sun is up every second of the day on the summer.. tip of the tongue.. that one day. Of course, theirs is our winter (ours refering to northern hemispehere)
Summer stays up for a week or more down in Sweden. It must stay up for months in Antarctica. Though, for those who measure time in sun movement only, I guess those months are just a day.
Some of the posts in reply to this proposition have reaffirmed parts of my depressing view on humanity. That is there is no hope for our own survival when left to choice. The concept of time being a separate thing from the planet Earth is simple but causes our sun-worshippers discomfort. They immediately reach for any and all barricades to throw up rather than exploring what might free them from their bindings.
I sure hope Daneel is working on that project he mentioned ... think he called it Gaia.
Quote from: Grok on September 19, 2005, 10:03 AM
Some of the posts in reply to this proposition have reaffirmed parts of my depressing view on humanity. That is there is no hope for our own survival when left to choice. The concept of time being a separate thing from the planet Earth is simple but causes our sun-worshippers discomfort. They immediately reach for any and all barricades to throw up rather than exploring what might free them from their bindings.
I agree with you on this and on having a global clock.
I also wish we used the metric system globally.
Did no-one read my post? Time is not an absolute quantity. Time for us is tied to our position and velocity! Events do not happen at some universal time! You will always need some reference time (frame), and have conversions, if you want to be precise.
That doesn't matter. Those things are true regardless of the method one uses to measure time. Perhaps another method would be simpler.
Quote from: Rule on September 19, 2005, 03:35 PM
Did no-one read my post? Time is not an absolute quantity. Time for us is tied to our position and velocity! Events do not happen at some universal time! You will always need some reference time (frame), and have conversions, if you want to be precise.
I think we were just talking about simplifying things.
Edit -> Sorry, I did not read Artas post before hitting reply with quote to post this.
Quote from: Arta[vL] on September 19, 2005, 04:09 PM
That doesn't matter. Those things are true regardless of the method one uses to measure time. Perhaps another method would be simpler.
There is a major flaw in the logic behind implementing this though -- and that does matter! It is not progressive in the sense that it is getting closer to the way time should be perceived: it is moving farther away from it (in some ways).
We would be partly adopting one ignorant view of time over another.
And would it really simplify things? Wouldn't we be doing a lot of conversions in our head anyways? (e.g. a statement could make sense 3:00 AM at location X, but not at 3:00 AM at location Y).
This ambiguity could be fixed by changing our schedules, so say, everywhere in the world we generally work from 9am-5pm, international time, etc. Would people cope with that very well?
It would be progressive to stop thinking of time in terms of daylight, I agree. Time has nothing to do with how bright it is outside. I guess I'm afraid this could be taken too far: time isn't a completely independent quantity.
I actually like the idea in some ways. I just wanted to point out that there are some very logical and rational objections to this proposal -- those that disagree with it are not necessarily mindlessly sentimental, as they seem to have been portrayed :P.
While we're on the topic of time, can anyone tell me what the 'AM' and 'PM' stand for WITHOUT looking it up? ::)
yes.....?
It's latin, something to do with the meridian.
Can someone name an advantage to having a global clock? I sure haven't seen it yet.
Instead of having to translate between timezones you get to translate between locations. I rather doubt everyone in the world would enjoy sleeping at the same time and waking at the same time regardless of the position of the sun.
If you have global time but people wake at different hours in parts of the world you still have to translate between your location and their location when comparing times. 1PM here might mean the sun is up and its the middle of the afternoon but for someone else it could mean the sun is just rising. Where as with the system we have now if someone says 11:59PM its almost always safe to assume its the middle of the night and the sun is likely down or very low in the sky regardless of their location on Earth.
Sure you can say 'late at night' but thats not specific enough for any real use and so people will end up creating a relative phrase for every hour relative to the position of the sun or they just won't use it.
The thing is that there are two reasons to talk times. Either you want to know if it's light or dark, and then "night", "morning" etc are very descriptive, and much more descriptive than numbers. After all, it can be dark here at 4 pm or it can be bright and 9 pm. If you care about what the sun is doing, use words for that.
On the other hand, if you want to find a time to do something, to synchronize something, having the same numbers everywhere would make things way easier.
Quote from: Explicit[nK] on September 19, 2005, 10:03 PM
While we're on the topic of time, can anyone tell me what the 'AM' and 'PM' stand for WITHOUT looking it up? ::)
Ante Meridian and Post Meridian - before and after the middle, aka, midday.
Awesome. ;D